How old is Vintage?

[Stilgar]

Hey all. I really like old Jeeps and Willys, but I was wondering how old a Jeep has to be to be considered Vintage?

Thanks!

[TJMagoo]

I would say to me vintage would be considered any jeep from 1941-75. But hey that's just me ;)

[Stilgar]

*wipes brow* Whew.... my rig just makes the cut... being a '74 and all. :D

Nice new forum... good job 4WD!

[Big Buro]

O.K. I'm brand new to this forum but I just couldn't resist. I've got a slightly different opinion. Since the Jeep trademark was actually purchased by Chrysler in 1972, I believe that a Jeep MUST be older than '72 to be a vintage. Sure body styles remained pretty much the same through 75 but the Jeep as known by the GI's of WWII, left us in that sale of 72. Nothing wrong with the 70's and even early 80's since they really didn't become plastic replicas until the mid 80's.

[Stilgar]

That's a good way to break it down... It's more of a definate marker. I know when it comes to other collectables, 25 years makes something a "classic" and 50 years makes it "vintage". Still... I appreciate your opinion and I think it makes a lot of sence. Even if that makes my Jeep only a Classic. ;)

[TJMagoo]

O.K. I'm brand new to this forum but I just couldn't resist. I've got a slightly different opinion. Since the Jeep trademark was actually purchased by Chrysler in 1972, I believe that a Jeep MUST be older than '72 to be a vintage. Sure body styles remained pretty much the same through 75 but the Jeep as known by the GI's of WWII, left us in that sale of 72. Nothing wrong with the 70's and even early 80's since they really didn't become plastic replicas until the mid 80's.

Hmmm....Very interesting. Thanks Buro for those facts! :D

[scrambler013]

Actually Chrysler took over the Jeep name in 1988. They bought AMC. AMC bought Jeep from Kaiser in 1970. Kaiser had Jeep from April 28, 1953 to 1970. Willys-Overland had the Jeep name from 1941 to 1953 when Kaiser purchased them. Some of the Jeeps still carried the Willys name even though they were made by Kaiser. The 1963 CJ5 that I have is a Willys but made by Kaiser. Kaiser put their name on the Jeep in the late '60s. No offense Big Buro but I am a bit of a Jeep historian. If you pick up a copy of The Story Of Jeep by Patrick R. Foster. In that book you will find a lot of good historical information that you don't find elsewhere. Willys doesnt tell you that the first Jeep was made in Butler, PA. It was made by the Bantam Motor Corperation. It was called the Bantam BRC. The modern day Jeep is a decendant of that very Jeep. Yes I am a fountain of, what some people think, of usless information.

[Joker®]

Hey Scrambler013, you might want to swing over to www.off-road.com/jeep/tech/cj-5.htm and straighten 'em out. They list the CJ-5 as "Vintage".

BTW, You're 'useless information' was quite informative, Thanx!

[scrambler013]

Well no prob Joker. I have been called by some an extremist. Those people who drive all of the wanna be's call em Jeeps and I am first to tell them what they are driving isn't worthy of the Jeep name. There is only one. I drive a Jeep, tried and true. It may be a square headlight Wrangler (or if you are a diehard CJ person Wrongler) but is is still a Jeep. I pride myself on that fact and take it upon myself to know all there is to know about Jeeps. I have many books on the subject, repair manuals, wallpapers on my PC, t-shirts, my brother-in-law is going to tattoo a CJ grille on my left arm this winter (real Jeeps have round headlights). And that is just the beginning. I live, eat, sleep, think, s*$t, walk, and talk Jeep all the time. The only reason I have a Ford Ranger is to run for parts. I have to have something I don't care about. :D HAHAHAHAHAHAHA (Found On Road Dead, Fixed OR Repaired Daily, F&%@er Only Rolls Downhill.) I got a million of em :g .

[thejeepingoat]

true, the m715 made by kaiser did have a "jeep" tailgate, thing is a beast

[jdogg4]

So would it be vintage if they lets say didn't make that type of jeep any more?

[scrambler013]

So would it be vintage if they lets say didn't make that type of jeep any more?
So Wrangler YJ's are Vintage? :shock: !?!?!?

[jdogg4]

So would it be vintage if they lets say didn't make that type of jeep any more?
So Wrangler YJ's are Vintage? :shock: !?!?!?

hahahaha I guess. I was talking my my 2001 XJ hahahaha vintage.

[Big Buro]

O.K., "Scrambler013", I apologize for the date mix up. I was thinking more on the lines of the change in the jeep and less of the actual purchase date. So, just so there is no confusion, Chrysler did indeed purchase AMC and it was indeed AMC that "purchased" Kaiser in 1970. However, until 1972, (month is unclear) AMC utilized remaining Kaiser inventory to manufacture their Jeeps, therefore, they were still Kaiser's. In 1972, the jeep was changed to become more economical as well as comfortable to the consumer. (Again, the exact changes remain little more than a mystery to me as I've never looked into it)
Lastly, you are correct in that the first jeep was built by Bantam, however, Bantam NEVER produced a production jeep. They built the prototype for the Government but the contract was given to Willys Overland on 9/21/1940 (Bantam was able to meet the 49 day lead time where Willys had asked for an extension). Due to the high volume, the government took their plans (actually Willys plans taken from Bantam plans) and took them to Ford. Between Willys and Ford, they produced upwards of 700,000 jeeps. The first jeep for the civilian market was intorduced in 1945 (CJ-2A).
For the record, I dont' mean this in any way to dispute anyone else's information or to belittle the information provided. This is what we come here for, to gather and share knowledge. The fact that there are people that take the inordinate amount of time necessary to learn this stuff is what keeps our jeep alive. Liek the saying goes it is "A jeep thing" others just don't quite understand.

[scrambler013]

Quite right, AMC did use remaining stock to produce their Jeeps. Chrysler did the same just after the purchace for a few years. I had a 1988 Comanchee that was a Chrysler but everything under the hood was AMC. It is an unfortunate fact that you point out, that Bantam, the inovator of the Jeep, never made one production model. They were merely used to make other parts and small stuff for them. Mainly trailers for the government. And the inordinate amount of time you speak of is right. It takes a lot of research to find the facts. Willys and Chrysler cover up the fact that Bantam made the first Jeep. I have spent hours arguing with people that had it not been for the Jeep sport utes of today would probably be very different and probably not quite as nice. Every sport ute is a result of the first Jeeps of WW2. Land Rover was the first one. But that is another story for another day in the Off topic forum. :D

[Big Buro]

Part of the deal to get the plans for the jeep from Bantam was that the government had to give them an exclusive trailer contract. I think though, had Bantam known what their jeep would become, they might have held out for a little more than a trailer contract.
I actually get most of my information by the force of my grandfather. The jeep that I just restored was purchased new by him in 1965. It was the 15th jeep off the line for the production year of 1966. From 1961 to 1968, he was a machinist for Kaiser jeep corporation just outside Toledo. He pretty much knows everything there is to know about the jeep up until '68. He's got original drawings from the 50's, technical engineering documents and books on top of books. When I was a kid, he would tell me that jeeps were "special" in a way that no other vehicle could ever be. I laughed at him then. Now, I tell my son the same thing.

[scrambler013]

Wow! :shock: . I hope you didn't take my first response to you the wrong way. That is awesome that you have that kind of history in the family. For you not only is Jeep part of america but in a certain, by no means small, way part of your own family. I think that when the Jeep was first tested by Maj. Lawes, and he said "I have driven every unit the services have purchased for the last fifteen years, I can judge them in fifteen minutes. This vehicle is going to be absolutely outstanding. I believe this unit will make history." no one really knew how right he was. I guess that is why I posted the thread about the whole chevy thing. I think that the historical value of the old classic Jeeps outweighs the need to climb a bigger rock. :)

[Big Buro]

Not to worry, I wasn't offended in the least. Actually, I should have been more accurate in my first reply to this board. I was trying to keep it simple. I find that, once I get going, most people tune me out. To most of them, a vintage jeep in original condition is cute to look at but they usually want that big 350 making a lot of noise and sitting 6 feet in the air. Not me though, I'll save all of that for one of the other vehicles. My jeep stays, for the most part, stock.
I think the jeep has always had it's own loyal family, that's what has made it such a staple in history. My grandfather still has friends that still have their old jeeps and still tell me how my generation has screwed it all up. I guess I'll be telling my grand kids the same thing.

[scrambler013]

Go ahead ramble. I do it to. If there is anything to learn in your rambling, I will try to pick it up. This forum, for me is great, I can talk Jeep all the time and people don't get bored with me! :D . Some of the people I hang out with in Erie usualy roll their eyes and look the other way when I get going. (Darn it I'm doing it again.) If you can't tell I tend to be a little anal retentive(does that have a hyphen?) when it comes to Jeeps. :shock:

[Big Buro]

scrambler, I'd tell you to join the club but it sounds to me like you already have. This is the absolute first time that I've ever even looked at the forums on ANY site. I tell you what, it's been great. You get to read a lot of different opinions, read about other peoples adventures and troubles, and, best of all, 99% of it is about jeeps. I'm glad I stopped by and I'm glad to stick around. We'll keep rambling and, hopefully, TJMagoo won't get too bothered by the length of our reply's.

[wurley]

it's easy -- people 75 years old--------jeeps 50 years old!

[deadpedal]

So would it be vintage if they lets say didn't make that type of jeep any more?
So Wrangler YJ's are Vintage? :shock: !?!?!?

hahahaha I guess. I was talking my my 2001 XJ hahahaha vintage.

WooHoo! I finally own a classic car! (I have a Cherokee too!)

[jdogg4]

So would it be vintage if they lets say didn't make that type of jeep any more?
So Wrangler YJ's are Vintage? :shock: !?!?!?

hahahaha I guess. I was talking my my 2001 XJ hahahaha vintage.

WooHoo! I finally own a classic car! (I have a Cherokee too!)

woooooooooooooooooo we rock the vintage department. ;)

[deadpedal]

my response to the beginning of this post is that I thought that in order for a car to move into "Classic" status was a discontinued model and/ or at least 25 years old. For "Antique" status, the same thing only 50 years.
That's how it usually goes with license plates anyhow.

[jdogg4]

my response to the beginning of this post is that I thought that in order for a car to move into "Classic" status was a discontinued model and/ or at least 25 years old. For "Antique" status, the same thing only 50 years.
That's how it usually goes with license plates anyhow.

I think its just the age thing nothing to do with if it was not in production anymore.

[deadpedal]

It was just my educated guess. I just remember seeing all of the cars at car shows with antique and classic license plates. If they're that old, the model's usually discontinued anyway. As a side-note, does anybody know of any model car that is still in production after either 25 or 50 years? The Corvette and Thunderbird lines are good examples, any others?

Just wondering.

[scrambler013]

Try the Mustang, they made those for 39 years and counting. They started in 1964 and a half. That was the first model year. The Camaro was made for more than 25 years. But anyway, like said before I think we are trying to keep this forum section with more of the real old stuff. Like the old 5's and older. That is just my opinion as far as vitage. I think the stuff from before 1972 would be a good place to start. That way there is a forum for people with the real old Jeeps, like the 2A, 3A, 3B, and the early 5. Jut st my 2 cents.

[Blupupher]

It was just my educated guess. I just remember seeing all of the cars at car shows with antique and classic license plates. If they're that old, the model's usually discontinued anyway. As a side-note, does anybody know of any model car that is still in production after either 25 or 50 years? The Corvette and Thunderbird lines are good examples, any others?

Just wondering.
VW Beetle since 1939 I think.

I guess I must be a Jeep nut too, I knew about 99% of everything said about the history of the Jeep here.

[Big Buro]

I did a little investigating, this is taken from an email reply that I received from "The U.S. historical automobile association", whoever that is.

Usually, "vintage" is associated with;
A: Age of a given vehicle
B: Condition of that vehicle to it's original form
C: The availability of that vehicle within the market place

In order to be a "vintage" jeep, it has to be old to the point of being "rare", as well as, in or very near it's original condition.
In most autmobile circumstances, a vintage auto is all too often incorrectly described as simply old beyond 20 or so years. However, Age has very little bearing on whether a vehicle is vintage or not. When considering your vehicle's vintage status, think of the finest of wines. This wine carries with it such rarity that the price tag is beyond normal means and It is only found at the most celebrated vineyards"


With that, I can pretty honestly say that there are very few jeepers out there with "vintage" Jeeps. Here I thought that my 66 would be considered vintage but I think I've made too many changes to be in that category. "Classic" yes, "Rare" maybe, but it's not in it's original form and you can pretty much find them if you look hard enough. So, I guess it's not really considered a vintage after all. How's that for busting some bubbles?

[5.0L 44GPW]

Hey what about those Ford GPW's 41-45 ( yes I caught that little bit of Ford bashing) those are VINTAGE and very cool, I being a Ford nut had to have one over a Willys. Anyone know why Henry Ford stamped a small F script in every part on his GPW's. Come on you Jeep history guys!!!!!!!

[scrambler013]

He stamped them all with the scripted F because he was making willys Jeeps and wanted people to be able to distiguish his from theirs. The reason here we just refer to the CJ's is because the military Jeeps are pretty rare, don't think you are excluded. It is a Jeep thing. We welcome anyone with a Jeep here. I think the old ford GPW's are Jeeps too. I don't know what everyone else here thinks, but welcome to the forum. Those are the only non "Jeep" Jeeps.
So to back up your point, yes they are welcome here. IMO. If anyone disagrees, tough. What do you think Big Boro?

[jdogg4]

Im with you scrambler if it wasnt for them who knows jeep might not even be around or have a totaly different setup by now well minus the KJ

[thejeepingoat]

im with them.. :t
-goat

[5.0L 44GPW]

Hey Scrambler013 you are pretty close, The goverment asigned the contract to 2 ( 3 if you count Bantam) but only if they could build identical vehicals so in the war the parts could be switched. Henry said I stampin all my parts so I dont have to warranty Willys parts. Hey thanks for the welcome Im not a purist the only thing stock on it is the body it see's the Rubicon once a year and loves it. PS also have a 90 YJ if the GPW wont work for a real jeep

[scrambler013]

The GPW will work, but so will the YJ. It is cool that you have an old military Jeep. They are pretty rare. Welcome to the 4wd forums, and to the Jeepn family here. I hope that you will be able to get involved with the fun and information we have here. This board has helped me a lot so far. Besides it's the only place that, even after an argument, we still get along cuz we all have Jeeps. :D

[Big Buro]

Well Scrambler013, I completely agree with everything said except, "those are the only non-jeep, jeeps" In actuality, they are the REAL jeeps before they were known as jeeps. In my opinion, 5.0L 44GPW, is not only welcome but belongs here.

[scrambler013]

I won't argue with you. I guess after reading what I posted it kinda looked bad. I agree. He does belong here.

[Big Buro]

Good man!

[thom1]

Hey all. I really like old Jeeps and Willys, but I was wondering how old a Jeep has to be to be considered Vintage?

Thanks!

Anything pre-emissions is vintage in my book.
I guess vintage is defined differently depending on your opinion AND when you were born! :lol:

[Big Buro]

I don't know about the rest of the country but here in California, the emissions laws change. That means, in a few years, it'll be up to 1975, 1976, and so on.
I think, if you calculate the number of years, that might actually put an end to the question. However, I also believe that those guys that have those REALLY old Jeeps deserve a classification of their own. Something that sets them apart from the rest of the world. Not sure how to address that one but it's a thought.

[scrambler013]

You mean like a flattie forum? I kinda agree with you. But what about people like me? I have a 2 CJ's, 2 Wranglers, and 2 XJ's. Well that is what my wife and I own. I fit into 4 forums here, Vintage, CJ, Wrangler, and Cherokee. I get so confused, where do I belong. I know I belong here, but there too(what). I get so disoriented(no not now). Then the voices start(shut up!!!). I guess I need my medication again(not now I said). :D

[myflatfender]

Hey scrambler, Now thats funny I couldnt help but LOL as I read that. :hil: I too feel I belong in the vintage jeeps and CJ sections guess I will fit into the Flattie Forum too when and if it arives. I dont know but I think I heard that they called Gpw's (jeep) before there was a Jeep. Maybe someone with a grampa like Bigburo or with an extencive library can let us know. Seems like I read that in a mag a couple years ago. And I agree this is a good forum. Thanks to all of you

[thejeepingoat]

\ Then the voices start(shut up!!!). I guess I need my medication again(not now I said). :D

HAHAHAHA :hil:

ooooo...the whole calling the gpw a jeep before there was jeep is one of the theories on how jeep got its name.... some people think they just called it a GP for short and if you say it fast enough it osunds like "jeep" the other prominent theory is that it was named after the 4th demensional go anywhere Eugene the Jeep character in the Popeye Cartoons that were popular during the war....this is just two of the more accepted theories, and if i said something wrong...or if u think u have another way to explain it....go ahead....

-goat

[lynn]

Like you guys, I'm somewhat of a Jeep history buff myself.

As such, I must attempt to further correct a misconception:
Bantam did in fact build production "Jeeps".

In March, 1941, the Gov't contracted Bantam, Willys and Ford to 1500 vehicles each, of their respective prototypes. Bantam was the first to deliver 1175 production models. Most went to Russia and England under a lend-lease arrangement. By the end of 1941, Bantam had produced and delivered 2675 units of their version. However, by this time the Willys MA was selected as the "standard" and was refined to the MB design for high-rate production. It was at this point that Bantam was left out of the game.
Few of the 2675 Bantam BRCs survive. There is the story of one of them, along with the info I provided, in JP Magazine, April/May, 1997 edition, with story and photos credit to David Fetherston.
:USA:

BTW, this board is pretty slow, not much activity. You guys with Early CJ5s (1955 through 1971) should visit our place.

[xjbroncofreak]

It was just my educated guess. I just remember seeing all of the cars at car shows with antique and classic license plates. If they're that old, the model's usually discontinued anyway. As a side-note, does anybody know of any model car that is still in production after either 25 or 50 years? The Corvette and Thunderbird lines are good examples, any others?

Just wondering.
Not to be sacrelig here or anything, but the Chevy Suburban has been around since the 30's.

[scrambler013]

I am not so sure about that. I read a history of the Chevy(my old roomate had it) and the first time the name of Suburban is mentioned isn't untill the late '40's. This book by the way was published and written by the fine people at GM.

Correct me if I am wrong, but as far as I could tell, that is when the 'burbans showed up.

But as far as Vintage goes, I would mark it off where Kaiser acctually rebadged the Jeep. Which would mark it late 70's. That is my $0.02.

[5.0L 44GPW]

Chevys got a 1935 Suburban in their new ad on TV!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[scrambler013]

My point is that in a book published by GM, the name Suburban dosen't pop up untill way into the '40's. So how, by GM's own word, could the 'burban be that old, if in a book they publish it isn't even mentioned untill the '40's. Personally I think it is just them trying to say they started the SUV movement when they didn't. And that ad is old. I saw it like a year ago. :lol: