Does This Bother Any One Else

[scrambler013]

I have written a long and mad letter to a Jeep magazine that will remain nameless. I don't want to sway anyones opinion of it. BUT the one thing that has pi$$ed me off about it is the fact that they condone the installation of GM engines in classic and rare Jeeps. I am a bit of an extremist and I think that they should remain Jeep. Now I know that some of the AMC Jeeps had GM engines from the factory and even some other GM parts, they even had Ford parts on them. AMC = All Motors Corperation, HAHAHAHA :D . But what I cannot accept is the installation of GM 305's, 350's, and 4.3's. I don't recall the Scramblers ever having MPFI engines, correct me if I am wrong PLEASE. I think that it is a sin to do that to an classic or rare Jeep. Would anyone take a Hurst Jeepster and tear it to shreds just to add a couple of more horses? I think not, so why do it to a rare '86 Scrambler. Post opinions, please, I want to know if I am the only one that feels this way.

[BigRedCJ7]

I know what you mean
a buddy of mine has a 74 CJ 5, not exactly "rare" or classic, but it goes along with the arguement. he put a 350 chevy in it, and i just wondered why. hes a jeep enthusiast and i thought it just didnt make any sense. :roll:
I mean c'mon, if you want a Jeep, wouldnt you want to keep it as original as you could? eh oh well

[scrambler013]

I am glad I am not the only one that thinks like this, I thought I was going crazy :x . Well The CJ-5 is kinda classic, not like CJ-2A classic but still. I agree with what you say. There are good Jeep motors out there to dump in a Jeep, 360,318,304, and I am sure there are more. Why pick Chevy?

[Stilgar]

I agree with ya'!

You won't catch me replacing my straight 6 with a v8. I like my 74 CJ-5 as original as possible. :)

[CINCH]

I feel it depends on what you are doing with it, the only thing on my scrambler that is original is the frame and body.

[rockmup]

Are you just trying to start a discussion or is all that anger for real?Almost nothing on my jeep is jeep except the frame and body. If I wanted a bone stock jeep I sure would not be reading the 4x4 mags that are out there. Different stroke for different folks. Just be sure and enjoy what you've got!

[scrambler013]

It is real. I enjoy what I have, I admit the 2.5 in my Wrangler is weak, but I won't put a GM motor in it. It is really about the classics though. You know like an 86 Scrambler. I read a mag with an article about a guy who totaly destroyed one by hacking it to pieces and putting GM this, GM that on it. There were only about 147 Scramblers made in 86, the ones left should be preserved not destroyed. I can handle it to certain degrees in CJ-7's and Wranglers, YJ and TJ, but the classics, that just burns me up.

[thejeepingoat]

well, the gm iron duke didnt have enough pep for me, and was sometimes a pain to drive bc in todays traffic sometimes u need that acceleration, and since it had a gm engine in it already i considered my current project an "upgrade" to a 4.3. I am keeping the engine carbuereted, i never considered the v8 swap, bc i would kill myself in something like that....cruisin out to big shell (padre island) is all my rig is for and my 4.3 will handle that fine.

[scrambler013]

thejeepingoat what kind of Jeep is it? My biggest b%&ch is with the classics being done up like that. I guess I can tolerate some of it. And I can almost agree if it had the Iron Duke in it. At least you kept it carburated. My CJ-5 has an old 134 F-head engine in it and that is all it will ever have. It isn't going for hills or rocks, just the occasional trail here and there. Besides it is for my wife. The Scrambler is going to keep that same old 258 straight six that it came with. It still doesn't answer the burning question, Why GM why not MOPAR? They have some good engines to offer, 318, 360, even the 6 cyl is good. I won't go to the extreme and put a Hemi in my Wrangler(wouldn't that be nice) it would take to much sugery to do it(I have some spare time) and the cost is out of this world(Im sure I could come up with some spare cash). Ok that is enough of this the voices have started again :g :lol: :evil:

[jdogg4]

This is kinda how I see it. People Like the jeep for the main reason of 4wheeling right. well then you get into mods like lifts and wenches and bumpers role cages and what not right. well most of those are performance inhancing to the jeep. So for a guy to put in a 305 or 350 or any GM motor it's just a mod or perfomance upgrade. Thats How I see.

[scrambler013]

It still doesn't answer the question. Why GM? Mopar or chrysler have good engines that would be easier to mount up. Why go thru the hassle to install a GM engine? That is the root question

[jdogg4]

It still doesn't answer the question. Why GM? Mopar or chrysler have good engines that would be easier to mount up. Why go thru the hassle to install a GM engine? That is the root question

cheaper. GM parts are cheaper and more universal than some of the other motors that are out there in the market.

[rockmup]

:D jdogg4 Has it. It's all about the money and simplicity.You can build a small blk chevy for almost half that of a ford and even less than that of most of the rest. most all the parts are interchangeable and they produced half again as many small blk chevys as fords. They are everywhere.As far as scamblers are concerned(read any make of early to late 80's vehicles),at least here in california the engines in them are crap because of all the smog stuff. Out here they took a normal engine and put a bunch of crap on it to make the eco-terrorist happy.Thats why in all domestic brand there were major changes to there powerplants in 86&87.Sorry to be so long winded.My point is most of the people I encounter want to use their jeep not have it sit in the weeds,so in goes a different motor

[scrambler013]

Finally someone with a real answer. Not that cheaper isn't a real answer. It makes sense in CA with all of the smog crap on them. Thank you for the bit of insigt on that one. However that doesn't explain the reasons in the rest of the 50 US states :D . Oh well I guess I am still quite alone in my quest to find a happy world with perfect Jeeps :( . HAHAHAHA. At least while I am here I know a little more as to why people put GM engines into their Jeeps. Thanks. (Still bothers me)

[jdogg4]

Finally someone with a real answer. Not that cheaper isn't a real answer. It makes sense in CA with all of the smog crap on them. Thank you for the bit of insigt on that one. However that doesn't explain the reasons in the rest of the 50 US states :D . Oh well I guess I am still quite alone in my quest to find a happy world with perfect Jeeps :( . HAHAHAHA. At least while I am here I know a little more as to why people put GM engines into their Jeeps. Thanks. (Still bothers me)

CA isn't the only place with smog issues. They might have harder or more effective laws for smog control, but there not the only one. All around it's more bang for the buck and performance and accessibility. I would bet anyone that I can come up with and build a GM motor with more power/torqe than any jeep motor at this point for less than a quarter of the cost.

Heck right now I have a 350 block in my garage and all it needs is a rebuild kit for it. it was running when it was pulled but it wouldn't hurt to go back thru the thing and spunk it up a bit. The rebuild kit I want is only 350 and the block was only 150 so that 500 bucks I'm doing all the work. maybe not the timing and tunning of the valves cause a valve job is hard to do. then another 250 in odd parts here or there. 750bucks at this point. And I have a 350 that will put out atleast 300 hp.

now I've been looking for a I6 HO for a buddies TJ it came with a 4 banger and it's just not doing the job for him with a 3"lift and 31's it does ok but he wants more power. I have yet to find just a stock one for less than 1200 thats stock and what do they put out about 170 to 200 hp I "think"

There easy to work with easy to pass smog inspection. LIke I said for the best bang for the buck it's the only way to go. I would love to but a mopar V8 hemmi motor in a jeep but thats going to cost a butt load of cash. Now if I won the lottery heck ya I would do it cause it's not an issue. but as you know if you don't have the lottery backing your bank account JEEP stands for just empty every pocket. the money you save going with chevy can go to the jeep for new jeep toys.

[scrambler013]

I guess I just have a thick skull. I just don't get the whole GM thing. I mean I want a Jeep for what it is. I guess I understand a little better than before as to why people use GM stuff but to me it still just doesn't make sense. To each there own I guess. It has taken a little of the anger away from the whole GM thing but I still get steamed when I see a classic or rare Jeep ruined by someone doing the GM thing to it. I guess that comes from preserving history, not destroying it. Someday I may see eye to eye with someone like yourself jdogg4 but for now I still disagree with it. However I will not hold it aginst you or anyone else with "normal" Jeeps, 7's, YJ's, TJ's, and the like but I will still hate to see a Scrambler get that treatment.
By the way I wasn't trying to pi$$ anyone off, just get some input and clarification on it. I has made for some ok posts though.

[jdogg4]

ya I wasn't ticked off just trying to help. Now don't take this the wrong way, but are all of your jeeps stock no lifts or anything? Cause it sounds like any kind of mod your apposed to.

[scrambler013]

Ok this might get a little long winded bear with me. It isn't mods I have the problem with. I have a 2" body lift on my YJ and 31x10.5x15's on it. The problem that bugs me is this. Back when the Jeep was made it didn't have the most HP on the market, it didn't even have the most Tourque on the market, (still doesn't). But that is what made the Jeep great is the fact that this little Jeep with, for example, a 134 L head four popper can out climb out mud and out do anything out there. That is what I have been led to believe is what the Jeep thing is all about. Knowing that, no I don't have the most HP, torque, or comfort of any vehicle on the road but I know that the guy next to me in the Chevy Blazer, or Ford Explorer CAN'T do what I can. He has a V6 and 4wd, but it isn't a Jeep and therefore not as capable as my YJ. It has been proven over and over that a bone stock Jeep can out perform anything else off road, no matter what they have under the hood. That is the beauty of the Jeep. It doesn't need all of that extra engine to be the best, just what it was"born" with. We all claim that we own the best 4x4 out there but we insist on taking out its heart and soul. That very heart and soul which gave the Jeep its impeccable off road record. The military was satisfied with the M38 and the M38A1 for so long, but their needs changed. Trails don't, they erode, and wear out so the Jeep of the past should still be able to conquer them. With the heart and soul it was born with.
Ok I'm done for now, any questions?

[CINCH]

there is no way in hell a stock jeep can go where I go. yes im pushing a 350 and I like having the torque to get over that obstical if needed.

[jdogg4]

Now keep in mind I'm not trying to start a fight here ok. But I guess I'm looking at it as a mod like anything else. Like say once you put a lift on it your changing suspention parts right. Thats not stock as your claiming that not changing the motor would no be stock or original.

The only people that I have seen really do the chevy motor upgrades are the ones that have taken there rigs to the max of what stock can take them. There is always something bigger or steeper or more challenging that it's going to take that more HP/tourq to get the job done.
The two other chevy and ford 4x4s you speak of ya I would say we have a better 4x4 based on stock options.

I see that you do have a lift and why did you do that. It wasn't just for looks I'm sure. I mean there had to been some reason behind it. say like you were finding more trails that required a lift right. At some point that 4 banger is going to start to have problems. When that happens are you going to get a new 4banger for it or try and rebuild it or replace it with somthing bigger.

My buddy with the 97 tj and his 4banger yes it's great on the trails that we take it on. But even with proper tuneups and good care of it The 4banger for offroading means isn't that great of a motor. It was ment for those none sport model jeeps with 2 wheel drive. My buddies is going to need some work and we found out it for an over haul for it is going to cost over 1600 for a 4banger. That why I was looking for an I6 HO and those are even pricy. then your next option would be something bigger stronger and cheaper to keepup.

I see your point and it's understandable. I always try and look at the short or long outcome of the project. There are a lot of ways to go about it.

If I had the money I would go with a jeep/mopar hemmi heck ya but thats not always an option. good strong motors they are but parts for it and the upkeeps is crazy on them. I don't have the money so I would go with a chevy motor.
It's what your going to be how you use your jeep aswell. In the long run I plan on getting a TJ next and It's going to be a rockcrawler so for that I would have to go with the chevy motor unless I win the lottery here soon.
feel free so share the winning #'s if you got them. O god I just forgot I have 5 tickets at home I forgot to check.

[CINCH]

The only people that I have seen really do the chevy motor upgrades are the ones that have taken there rigs to the max of what stock can take them. There is always something bigger or steeper or more challenging that it's going to take that more HP/tourq to get the job done.


ding ding ding, we have a winner, good post jdogg4

[viper]

hey there 1 have a 73/ cj5 with 12lift kit and 38in tires(ss boggers)
and i am considering gm 350 super charged. what is so bad about that its a $6,000 drive train, with endliss posability's.

[jdogg4]

hey there 1 have a 73/ cj5 with 12lift kit and 38in tires(ss boggers)
and i am considering gm 350 super charged. what is so bad about that its a $6,000 drive train, with endliss posability's.

6,000 for a drive train what all are you getting?

and why are you going supercharged?

[scrambler013]

With the lift kit I wanted to put bigger tires on my Jeep for the occasional mud fling, rock hop. And when the 4 banger goes, yes I will upgrade to sometheng bigger a I6 4.0 HO from a TJ or Cherokee. I will not put a GM in it. That is me. Again getting back to the main problem of the Classics and Rares having it done to them. The newer or more common ones don't really bother me that much. They do, but not that much. It is along the lines of preserving the pieces of history as they were, not destroying them. Also my 4banger has pulled some Chevy 350's out of the mud and muck a time or two, so don't tell me my 2.5 can't go where or do what a 350 can cuz from what I have seen they can't do much. And I had stock 215/75/15's on it at the time. My Jeep is VERY capable of keeping up with the "big dogs". Now to go over the root problem I have, it is with the "destruction" of classics and rares that is the root of my problem. Would you take a Hurst Jeepster and put a 350 in it, only if you are stupid. That is a rare one indeed, they need to be preserved. We all know where our TJ's, YJ's and the like came from. Preservation of what is our history as Jeepers, that is what I am talking about here.

[viper]

well its a highly modified LT1 out of a 03 corvette Z06 with 6SPEED
and DANA GEAR BOX out of a 01 z71 off road.
4-10 front dana 44 4-11 rear dana 44 (rear is welded front nox lockers)
all brand new with disc breaks. with a skyjacker 12in lift as well as 2 in body lift. cool yes a 6 speed in a jeep.

[jdogg4]

dannnnnnnnnnnnnngggggggggggggggggg man that is some setup you got going in there.

[thejeepingoat]

83 CJ-7..........the only i went with a GM motor is because the Jeep came with a GM motor (the iron duke).....the 4.3 will bolt right up, finally found the flywheel i need on ebay. Plus the fact that my cousin rebuilt a 4.3 for his 4-by S-10, but i convinced him to use the 4 bolt main block i had in exchange for a good price on that 4.3, the 4.3 should be all i need, that is why I used the 4.3

I think it comes down to every situation, what is easier, and what is more convienent to do. Also, its how much money you have........if you have the time and money, you can do anything or have someone else do it for you......which i am against, but i do agree when you are treading new waters, its best to let a true professional handle it.
-goat

[scrambler013]

Well now, I am glad to see that we all kinda got along here. I want to say this again. I do not hold what people do to the 7's, 5's, YJ's, and TJ's. So please don't get the idea that I think you are all weird or something. The engine you put in the 5, goat, I can understand that, it had a GM in it to begin with and putting a GM in was just easier. I would also like to say that this forum has kinda opened my eyes to something I didn't understand fully. :shock: . So I guess my head isn't that thick after all. I have a new understanding and won't be so quick to bi&%h at someone with a GM in their Jeep(depending on the model). I apreciate all the information that you all have given me. I still won't do it myself, but that is my opinion.
And Goat you are right, a Jeeper shouldn't pay to have their Jeep worked on. Try calling another Jeeper with some experience if you are heading into new waters. Last resort is paying someone to do it.

[rockmup]

:D Were havin fun now! scrambler013,there is NO way even a sligtly modified jeep could go where we go.The Rubicon is just one of many but let's start there. Chrysler will tell you that they have taken thousands of bone stock jeeps on this trail. What they don't tell you is that they go AROUND all the sections of this trail that are hard. I see it every year many,many times.It's not just them lot's of people say things like that.You could not do this trail in a stock jeep. Anyone who says they have are full of crap.Only now can the 4cyl guys start getting some relief and because of the 4:1 low tc kits.These open a whole new area for guys with out lots of torqe. What makes a jeep so good is not it's drive train anyway.It's the size and susspension.Not to mention the history. cya

[viper]

:razz: Yes it's nice to come to a place to jot a few notes without gitting my but reamed over my mods. as of today my cj-5 is up and runing.
next weekend will be it's trial run. taking it to rock creek kentucky( home of the jeep jamberee 2002. lotts of mud and rocks . to update everyone
I have a 1973 cj-5 with a 2003 corvett z-06 LT-1 --2003 Z-06 6SPEED TRANNY(WITH SHIFT KIT) SKY JACKER 6''LIFT KIT WITH SHAKELLS DANA 300 GEAR BOX. DANA 35 FRONT WITH 4/11 GEARS DANA 44 REAR WITH 4/10 GEARS, NEW COMPLETE STEAL BODY EVERY PART IS BRAND NEW ENGINE COST LITTLE OVER $6,500 ALONE NE WLOCK OUT'S
AND NOX LOCKERS FRONT AXLE REAER IS WEILDED. NEW ROLL CAGE AND ALL DIGITAL DASH EVERY THING HAS BEN REPLACED EVIN NEW WIRRING HARNIST WAS ORDERED SPECIAL VIA PAINLESS WIRRING.
THIS BAD BOY ALSO HAS A 3'' BODY LIFT NEW SWAY BARS AND NEW DRIVE SHAFTS. WITH A NEEW $2,200 HARD TOP WITH A ROOF RACK THAT HOLDS 1 OF 6 38'' SUPER SWAMPER BOGGERS. YES A 6SPEED 485 HORSEPOWER BEAST. THAT AS OF TODAY TOP'S OUT AT 76 HIGHWAY BUT NOT RECOMENDED WITH SUCH A SHORT WHEEL BASE AND BIG TIRES YOU CAN FLIP VERY .EASY

[scrambler013]

Well viper it looks like you built yourself a fast one there. Let us know how she performs when you get back from the trial run. And by the way when was I reaming butts for mods? :) I was just a little , uh, uninformed thats all. Some people in this thread have opened my eyes a little. I still have my opinion, but that is all it is, my opinion. It is nice to see some people share it to a certain degree.

[Big Buro]

I've got a 66' CJ5 with the original "dauntless" 225 (Buick). I think that the single most important issue isn't price or ease of installation, It's all about making your boat float. If you're out on a weekend cruise with your vintage, all original, jeep; you're all smiles. It took tremendous dedication and commitment (not to mention money) to restore that jeep. You wouldn't be caught dead on the trails of Rubicon. However, that other quy gets just as much out of his newly installed 350, with the 6 inch lift, boxed frame, nearly no body at all, and tires that belong on an earth mover, when climbing those same trails that the first guy wouldn't touch. There are definitely two or more types of jeepers out there. Myself, I've had that nearly stock CJ in places that make the crawlers take a deep breathe. But, I reach my limits and that's the key. Some see the limits and enjoy em' while others are trying to obliterate those limits and enjoy the challenge. Just keep on jeepin'

[scrambler013]

I like the way you think Boro. I realize there are two types of Jeepers out there and what I am trying to do is get some common ground here. I am more of the traditionalist and feel strong about, for the most part, origionality. Mainly, as I have said numerous times, with the classic Jeeps. I have learned a lot from the people who have posted here about why GM and not something else. I have never looked into it myself so I didn't know GM was easier to bolt up. Of course if it had GM it would be, but that is a different story. It is just nice to see some decent back and forth between the different types out there. I guess I fit into the happy with reaching my limits. Someday I may cross that road but for now I am happy. :D

[bernidupa]

I just recently purchased my second jeep, 1984 CJ 7 and it is all sotck. I intend to keep it all original accept for a fiberglass tub. Having said that, I would add that I think it is perfectly fine to throw a chevy motor or a ford rear end in it. Who really cares, a Jeep is a beatiful thing, but beaty is only skin deep, what goes on under the sking is between the jeep and its owner. :)

[DeckDog]

I agree with you about that magazine.... (I'm pretty sure what one you are talking about, and i am thinkning that the next time my sub comes due that i won't unless it changes) I use to really enjoy it and looked forward to getting it.... but now it's no bigy.... I have at least 6 years of their issues and i continually refer to them when I need a reminder and it is great to have them. But as for the future, who knows, maybe the parent company will wise up..... also you have to remember that alot of the things they are printing are fad's and fad's die..... but the jeep remains a constant.......

Just my 2 cents

[deadpedal]

I know that a lot of mudders run 350s in their jeeps for the cheapest horsepower possible. A lot of these guys are like you and me and don't have any corporate (or even local) sponsorship. They have budgets just like you and me too.

The Chevy 350 is the most widely-used smallblock engine for racing anywhere in the United States. I'm sure some hillbilly in the everglades is using one in a swamp-buggy even as we speak... at the same time an amateur drag-racer is warming up his first set of racing slicks.

This comes down to: competitively-priced aftermarket parts for a willing market who need affordable performance parts = Chevy smallblock.

Don't get me wrong, I've driven Chevy, Ford, Dodge and even Toyota trucks before and there is an unavoidable fact with all of them; they all break sooner or later. I loved running my 4Runner around, but when it broke I had to order parts. I had a Silverado that needed just as many parts (because I broke it just about as often) and I could always find them at NAPA or AutoZone. I still can't totally say that about my YJ though. There's a lot to be said for parts availability. :USA:

[scrambler013]

I have never had any major problem getting parts for my YJ. Occasionally I have to order something but I haven't had to lately.
By the way Deck Dog, I got a reply from the editor and he gave me some insight as to why. He said that the mag takes on the interests of the editor and right now the editor is into fabrication, engine mods, and stuff like that. I hope this doesn't give too much away, but I would prefer if Rick Pewe came back. :lol:

[rockmup]

Whats the deal? If someone has a problem with something why not just say in plain english what and who were talking about. I'm not trying to sound like a jerk but whats with the comments about the "magazine"? It's not like they are going to come to your house and take away your birthday or anything.What with free speach and all.Just wondering, Todd

[scrambler013]

I did say it in plain english. I don't like when people put GM stuff in classic and rare Jeeps. I won't mention the mag because if someone is into that stuff but they see bad things about a mag they may not pick it up. The mag in question may be able to help someone with something that they are doing. That and a little proffesionalism doesn't hurt. I initialy started this post because, I'm sure you read most of it, I get kinda peeved when I see a rare Jeep like an 86 Scrambler torn apart and reassembled with GM this, GM that, Ford this, Ford that. They only made 147 1986 CJ-8 Scramblers, I feel that they should be preserved. If you want to make a trail rig buy a frame from 4wd or advanced frame works and make one, don't destroy a rare Jeep like that. It doesn't bother me with the more common ones so much anymore, thanks to the input from people who posted here. It is with the rare ones, mainly the Scramblers. I see you have a CJ-7 with a GM engine in it. Before this post that would have bothered me, now it doesn't. If you show up with a Scrambler that way I would probably bite your head off :D . It is just my opinion and I was trying to see other opinions on it.

[Big Buro]

So, now that we're all telling it like it is. Why would anyone in their right minds want a 350 in a jeep anyway? Cheap horse power? I don't buy it. ease of parts?, can't buy that one either. Nope, I don't think there is a real reason. I think that some after market shop came up with the idea of marketing the motor mounts, selling them for a fortune, and ta da, it's suddenly the thing to do. I listen to people in here talking about how much less expensive it is to run the small block chevy over whatever original equipment came with the jeep. And yet, these same people are also talking aout the thousands of dollars that they've spent on their rigs. Skyjacker this, rockram that, full floaters, solids, th350 automatics, lockers, bull bars, Warn winches, etc, etc... And even a V8 out of a Vette Z06. Nope, I firmly believe that it is only in the interest of trying to make their rig the biggest and baddest in the land. And, like I said some time ago, whatever floats your boat, just do me a favor and leave that whole, "it's what I can afford" story for someone else cause Big Buro ain't buyin it.

There's my two cents!!!

[rockmup]

Wow, what a dull life you guys must have!The same everything every day. Where's the fun in that?If your that hung up about stock rides then subscribe to resto rigs or something like that. The mag. your reading gives what the majority of its readers want. If you don't like it then tell them. As for why people do thing's different-Why not? Do you know that jeep only put the Buick v-6 in Jeeps because so many people were doing it they thought they were loosing out on the money.(Don't belive me? Just look at the new Rubicon.)As to Big Buros thought that we just change part's in our Jeep's because someone sells us big dollar parts,your just plain wrong. I have a well built Jeep,and thats the point.I built it. The most expensive thing I've bought is a Detroit for the 9" rear with disc's that I narowed in my garage.I don't know anyone that would or could spend 3500 on an axle. But someone does and good for them. They are just different from me. Anyway I'm off my rant. Have a great Day! Todd

[Big Buro]

Uh oh, are we gonna start talking about my dauntless V6? In reality rockmup, you're partly correct. In 66' a lot of people had the Buick V6. However, that's not why Kaiser decided to go with it. I have asked this question many times of many people that were there. The Buick V6 was the natural succession to their four banger. It was the ONLY engine that Kaiser could;
A. Install in the CJ5 without complications with the transmission interface.

B. It was the ONLY V6 that possessed an exhaust manifold that would keep the tail pipe within the confines of the body. Other V6's were available but required fenderwell modifications to accept the tail pipe.

and C. The buick was the only engine available on the market that Kaiser could purchase the rights to. Otherwise, for every jeep sold, Kaiser would have had to pay a royalty to the manufacturer. Kaiser built the Buick engine. They didn't buy the engine's already built. Since a NEW jeep was around $1500.00, Kaiser didn't have the profit built into the jeep which would allow them to pay royalty for the engine.

Now, on that other topic, riddle me this rockmup, I have on the front end of my jeep, a four inch piece of 1/8th inch U-channel that has four holes in it and is riveted to the frame. This is my very, very plain front bumper. Now, this front bumper has been on this jeep for 36, going on 37 years. When I was a boy, we pulled tree's up by this bumper. We've pushed Cadilac's, and I mean those heavy caddy's too, and yet, this bumper has barely more than a scratch on it.

With this being said, why are after market bumper's so popular? Because they're better?? Because they serve a more useful purpose? If you can reasonbly answer that one, you might be on to something...

I realize that you have a 350 in your ride and I don't have much of a problem with it. I can greatly appreciate the fact that you built your rig. Believe me, I do. BUT, the power to weight ratio that is found when combining the "out of the box" 350, with the weight of the jeep, makes that 350 just a little above useless. Realistically speaking that is. I'm sure it sounds good, runs good, can probably lay rubber with the best of em', but engineers are usually smart people, If the 350 was the way to go, they would have been made standard. I'm sure you know that the V8 was offered in the CJ for a few years, if you look around, you won't find too many left. What's that saying? Horsepower breaks things???

Now, I'm off my rant. I just love a good debate. Hope to hear from you soon.

[rockmup]

Oh,Oh. I too love a good debate.Yes,Kaiser did do all the things you said but not because it was their idea. People were doing that long befor Kaiser decided to do it and with ALOT of different motors.As it turned out,that motor worked best for many reasons,and was the most popular conversion being done at the time.as forbumpers I've no idea.Mine are 3/16 thick tube,capped and serve as air tanks. You should know I CAN'T stand engineers. They have no understanding of the real world,I deal with and have to fix their screw ups most days of the week.Have you ridden in a Jeep with a small block? Did they know HOW to drive? I doubt it. Tell you what,if ever you(or anyone else) end up out here I'll be more than happy to take you out wheeling in my Jeep.I doubt you will feel the same when were done.Good talking too you

[scrambler013]

Wow, Big Boro did you get all of that? You know I thought Kaiser did that for a reason. I never saw a Jeep with an engine mod much before the late 70's, isn't that when AMC owned them? Oh yea, they did. I am sure your grandfather never transplanted an engine in his Jeeps. In the real world Horsepower Breaks things! It is a proven fact! The more horses and torque an engine has the more power it has to snap axles like toothpicks. My four poper has been all over the place and has never gotten stuck. I remember having to pull Chevy trucks out of snowbanks with it. There is that wonderfull 350 you speak of. :D

[Big Buro]

Of course it wasn't their idea, people have been doing all kinds of swaps since the days of the very first civilian jeeps. Nevertheless, they didn't choose the Buick because they thought they were losing money on swaps.
O.K., I'll give you that one on the engineers, I'm not a big fan either. Nevertheless, you didn't address the power to weight ratio. There's no way for you to dispute the fact that a 383 is overkill for a jeep. And, if you know how to drive then what do you need the horsepower for? For that matter, why the automatic tranny?
Lastly, I think you might have a good idea. Where is Yuba City? I have to get my jeep put back together but come spring, I wouldn't mind making the trip.

[Big Buro]

Hey Scrambler013, I think we're on the same page. The key though, is that Kaiser didn't "swap" engines. The Buick was designed into the jeep. There is a major difference. I didn't want to dispute rockmup's notion that people were doing swaps on nearly every corner. I'm not real sure about that so I can't speak on it. I do believe that you're closer to the time frame though. I don't think people really got into it, with jeeps anyway, until the 70's. I did happen to speak to the old man (my gramps) about it last night though, he doesn't remember exactly why they did it or where the idea came from but he did say that there was a race to see who would come up with it first. Their engineering department broke into teams to figure out the best motor. Buick won out because of the whole royalty thing. That was the deciding factor. They had actually thought about modifying the Renault four banger to put out more ponies. Can you believe that one?

As far as him transplanting engines in jeeps, I think he's worse than both of us on his opinion. He just laughed at me and asked "why are you even talking about a dumb subject like that?" He then proceeded to give me all of his wisdom on why putting 350's, and the like, into a jeep is asking for trouble. Same, same.. all the things we've mentioned.

[LeadFoot]

I have no problem with engine swaps (brands). If it runs good and does the job, who cares? Unless your restoring to orginal, I see no need to stay stock.

[rockmup]

Big Buro,Yuba City is just north of Sacramento Calif. If your Jeeps not up and running when you head this way don't sweat it your welcome to ride with me. As for the HP to weight, my answer is that my Jeep started out spending alot of time in the sand,at least twice a month at Pismo Dunes.You need lots of ponys and an auto is the only way to go in the sand. After I moved up north to the Sierras I started doing alot of rock crawling,I had never done that befor. After awhile I got used to driving what I had and I saw no reason to change. If I was going to build another I'd go with a 4.3.That motor makes alot of pony's and torqu and is very managable.Yes the hp breaks things and in my case its axle shafts or u-joints in my front D-30. No big deal I understand that is my weak link and I just carry spares.If I break I'm back in buisness in 25 min. or so. You should know that I hardly break any more as my driving skills and my between run maintnance have improved.That's not to say I don't get myself into some real messes though. Have a great holiday,Todd

[Big Buro]

I think that the most important aspect of this arguement is that, in order to do it right, an engine swap to a small block requires not only the engine but the entire drive train. That leads me back to me earlier statements that it's not the inexpenive aspect that leads people into these swaps. Once into it, I think most people find it much more expensive.
One of these days, I'll make my way up there. By the way, have you seen the poll for the meet and greet? We're trying to get people to sign up for a trip back east. Check it out, maybe we can get enough people interested and make an event out of it. We could have the "FIRST ANNUAL 4WDH JEEPFEST". Especially if TJMagoo can get some sponsoring.

[berettajeep]

Am I correct in saying that there is no real '86 CJ8's?
That they are only leftover '85's. :D

[scrambler013]

For the most part, berettajeep, that is correct. They are made from parts leftover from 85 but tagged and 86. So there is an 86 model year for the Scrambler but, just like most Jeeps with the same body style, they produce so many parts that they use them from year to year. Auto manufacturers have been doing it for years.

rockmup, I have never driven in sand! I live in Erie, PA and the state forest service doesn't like it when people drive on the Peninsula. :D It is state protected property. I know that sand is one of the roughest places to run, unless you have tires made for it, you know those paddle tires. For what I have done and am willing to do with my Jeeps the engines that they came with are fine. Again I think you are looking at my main point the wrong way, I am looking at the classics. If you were to put a GM motor into a classic 1942 CJ-2A that would be just plain wrong. They need to be preserved. I am a bit of a historian and like to see out history preserved. There are enough CJ-7's out there that someone, somewhere has one, or more, restored, not rebuilt. I am sure you know what the difference is. Your's was probably rebuilt, Big Boro's, and my CJ-5's are restored. After restoration there will be some mods on my 5. Small lift and some stuff like that. I don't want to start arguements here because we are all talking about our OPINIONS, that is it. Just a friendly discussion about our opinions.

Have a Merry Christmas everyone, and a Happy New Year!

[rockmup]

Hey,scrambler013,no need to defend yourself I'm just having fun.Opinions are like behinds- we all have them, and they all stink! If you ever do get the chance to run in the sand, do it. you would not belive how much fun it isSand and rocks I know. Mud I don't have a clue. Have a great New Year.

[deadpedal]

Nope, I firmly believe that it is only in the interest of trying to make their rig the biggest and baddest in the land. And, like I said some time ago, whatever floats your boat, just do me a favor and leave that whole, "it's what I can afford" story for someone else cause Big Buro ain't buyin it.

There's my two cents!!!

I can't afford the changes that a 350-swap would require, but if I could afford it, I would probably do it. But, like I said, we don't all have just buckets of money to just throw at whatever whim we come across, that's left to those dudes that get into magazines. Of course it's to make their rigs the biggest and baddest, that's why there are so many competitions in this sport.

[thejeepingoat]

sand is a great thing, im from corpus christi, tx, and the national seashore is right here, and there is plenty of sand, it is fun to drive in, and u dont need special paddle tires, a good pair of all terrains does you just fine....street tires are also pretty good, mudders do all right contrary to most peoples belief. Might just be the sand around here, but who knows. I love the beach just as much as i love the mud. The beach is great for jeeps bc of how light they are, ive seen some trucks that do awesome in the mud die in the sand bc of their weight.
-goat

[Joker®]

I think we're getting away from the subject, but anyway...........
We got lots of sand here. The real fine stuff. I think it's sand dust! The mudders have a tendancy to hoss the throttle from the start, those big ol' mudmeats can bury your axles in a heartbeat. Most P/U trucks are too lite in the rearend for sand. You'd be surprized what a difference it makes by putting a few cinder blocks in the bed or even 50 ft of logging chain ;)

[jeff mclain]

I ve tried to keep my CJ all jeep even my seats are jeep grand.
even my electric fan is chrysler. 73 360 amc out of a j20. the only thing not really jeep is the 600 holley and fenderwell headders
but if my jeep was a foctory six or four it probally would have gotten a 400 small block chevy

[scrambler013]

The only Jeep I am thinking about a swap in is my YJ. I want to put a six in it. Of course I am looking for a 4.0 from a Jeep. That way I can put a T-5 out of a CJ in it. Then I want to put the front axle from a CJ in it so I can drop a Dana 300 tcase in it. Of course I am in the process of tracing and out lining a way to put a CJ flat dash in my YJ. If I had the T5 in it it would be so much easier. I am trying to CJ up my YJ. I like the interior of the CJ's much better.

[znurnburg]

hey, if it works, it works. ;)

[myflatfender]

I can understand people being upset when they see a classic turned into some kind of mutant. When I bought my CJ3A it had a 1969 mustang 200 6cy in it. I got it started and it smoked like a chimmeny. Knowing that the buick v6 was popular in jeeps I looked for one for awhile. Finally I just rebuilt the 6cy. I live on the Oregon coast and we have plenty of sand and some pretty steep dunes. Low air presure in moast any tire will get you thru the sand but wide rear and narrow front tires help. Yes the paddle tires do get you there faster the way they scoop up the sand. I was disapointed to see the 6cy in the lil jeep but I wouldnt be happy with the stock motor if I had it anyway. You wouldnt beleive how much momentum I lose when shifting gears which is why automatics are so good in the sand. I have picked up a few engins over the last couple years a GMV6, 327 with jeep stickers on the valve covers I beleive made by AMC in 1966, and a 390 ford. I know the 390 sounds crazy but if you could see the popular sand dune here it might make a lil sence. I dont beleive any stock rig has ever made it up this hill. Its a jeep thing

[rob wojtkowiak]

The only real good argument I have ever heard is that parts will always be available. They may also be cheaper to rebuild later. Now after saying that I would like to know what AMC V8's would bolt up to sr4 tras... :lol:

[Jeepkreep]

I'm trying to get you an answer on that Rob....

[M4TJA1]

Good point!!

[VirginiaHunter]

Good, bad, or indifferent, who really cares what reason someone has for using their preferred power plant. I think the main issue is what's good for the owner. Me I prefer the Chevy V8 cus A) I know them like the back of my hand, B) I have a rebuilt one from my 73' camaro I never drive, C) My first jeep was so equipped, D) Best bang for the buck. Hell I hate all the Harley look a likes these days, but does that mean I look down my nose at somebody riding anything other then a hog? Hell no, at least they are out in the wind. Same with a Jeep, just have fun with what you want.

My 2 bits, oh and Howdy all new here ;)

[mdwatkins]

I agree completely with Scrambler on this issue even though I just posted a topic on how to swap in a 350. The issue confronting me is that I want a 5 speed and jeep just doesn't make a good one. The money for all the adaptors needed to mate one up to my 258 is outrageous. I can drop in a rebuilt 350, tranny and t case for the cost of a 5 speed and adaptor to my 258.

I would love nothing more than to keep my 258, but until I can find an economical way to mate it up to a hearty 5 speed and t case I just don't have much of a choice.

Matt

[JEEPSTER1]

i think you build your jeep the way your gonna use it. the mopar engines are pi$$er,but most of them are built with all the sack low end/torque/. the chevy has a nice mid and high end sack that most STOCK mopars cant match. the mopar engines were built for wheeling and torque, but in mud running for example i beleive that you want more top end to stay on top of the mud or right thru it. i lke mopar and will stick with it but i think if its a clean and properly done swap , it should be able to be swapped back if the need or want arose.

[dh_4_ever]

thats a good point. I stick with the mopar. I can still be fast with it, and do the halling of gear that I need

[scruffysmileyface]

Not being a rock crawler myself (may happen later, who knows?), all I need is stock gear -- at least under the hood. My '92 YJ (first Jeep, I've had it for a month) is a bit underpowered with its 2.5L 4cyl, and I like to say it runs almost well enough to keep the engine. But I bought a Jeep because I wanted to own a Jeep, so I'll replace the engine with another stock Jeep engine. Something appropriate for a YJ. I don't feel that, for my purposes, a V8 is necessary, or any other Chevy-to-Jeep conversion, and I'm not real sure it would be right for me anyway.
I can say this though: If my '92 YJ was a '76 or '80 CJ (for example), I'd be d&mned before I'd put a GM motor in it.



'92 YJ, all stock, most of it broken :USA:

[VirginiaHunter]

Just so you know, alot of older Jeeps came stock with GM motors, my 151 4 banger is a GM mated to a Ford trany, go figure. I'll stick with a GM powerplant, but I'll just duble the number of pistons ;-)

[thejeepingoat]

exactly what i did with my iron duke GM four banger, but i only added 2 cylinders and went with the 4.3.....its great.

-goat

[89cherokee]

If I had the money and some way to do it I think is would be aweomse to put one of the new V8 Grand Cherokee Diesels into and old jeep or even mine. That would give you some serious power and keep it jeep.

[VirginiaHunter]

Well, all this talk of V8 power, I just ordered the bits from Novak to get mine started, heehee. I can't wait to get started transplanting my CJ5 with a Cheby V8. "We can Rebuild him....."

[scrambler013]

The whole point I was adressing was that I am rather upset at people putting GM motors in the classic and rare Jeeps. I don't really have an opinion on the 7's and the later 5's. I just get a little steamed when I see a Scrambler or an old flattie with a GM power plant. Hell I am in the process of setting up a 318 out of a 81 Dodge Diplomat for my 95 YJ. And the low nutz is why. I want a rock crawler with tons of torque, not a mud buggy. I don't need speed, I need balls! I am not knocking GM motors. I would rather see them under the hood than a Ford (Found On Road Dead) motor. I just don't like seeing them in classics. I understand the whole to each their own BS, I just don't like seeing it. When my Scrambler resto really gets moving I will just rebuild the 258 under the hood and be happy with it. I am not a power junky. I have 3 four cylinder Jeeps. Two Wranglers and one CJ-5. I don't knock them. I like them acctually. It is nice to see some other people that share my point of view. And so far it has been a pretty clean discussion. That rocks!

[gonzojohn]

I know what you mean
a buddy of mine has a 74 CJ 5, not exactly "rare" or classic, but it goes along with the arguement. he put a 350 chevy in it, and i just wondered why. hes a jeep enthusiast and i thought it just didnt make any sense. :roll:
I mean c'mon, if you want a Jeep, wouldnt you want to keep it as original as you could? eh oh well
what's better than a chick driving a CJ7? a topless one. My mechanic is up in arms because I'm musing a recon remanufacturer'ed 232 insstead of a 258. For what, 18 HP & 23 ft/lb.torque?. If my oriiginal 232 lasted me 31 yrs, a recon 232will do me well enough. The AMC (After Market Car) L-6 is basically a Ford L-6 anyway).

gj

[JEEPLT1]

the whole idea of a jeep is to build it to what you want. if you want a rare jeep with a chevy v-8 than be my guest. what i dont like is when i see a cj-8 bobbed! i mean why buy a cj-8 just to shorten it? buy a damn cj-7!

[sbacon]

WoW! must be getting closer to Halloween. Pulled this thread from the grave...LOL :bat03:

[adamcj-5]

When I talk to alot of people here, they do the Chevys because they are cheap to build and parts are plentyful.

I do not agree though. I am all AMC. I think they are stronger runners than Chevys and can take a beating. I like peoples reactions to them too, they can't figure out what they are. I personally am sick of seeing Chevys. I like the Mopars if its not AMC.

[blackwater]

I am all AMC. I think they are stronger runners than Chevys and can take a beating.

Well said, Adam! :beer:

[thejeepingoat]

holy crap this thread is ancient.

[soffa king]

Real Jeeps are built.
there is no rule book on howtheir built. :boohoo: :mecry:

[joe_and_jeep]

Real Jeeps are built.
there is no rule book on howtheir built. :boohoo: :mecry:

AGREED! I think some people got some sand in there "private" spots. My 47 Dodge has a Chevy 350 in it. I agree to the point dont take a gorgeous pristine all original and cut it. Find a crappy one to do it too.

[FUBAR]

my thoughts are this:


I don't give a crap what you do to your jeep. It's yours, make it as pretty as you want, as original as you want, or as F'd Up as you want. Just don't ask me to pay for it and I won't care what you do to it.

one thing i've found is that if you off road it, especially where the motor will get abused a lot, there are a lot more places that carry chevy parts close to home than AMC parts and the parts are cheaper.

my question to scrambler though is, would it be a sin to put a 401 in a classic scrambler?

[tomsjeep]

Does that include putting in a Hello Kitty?
How about a Hello Kitty fire extinguisher?

[79cj7duner]

I disagree with the GM stuff myself. It is too overdone, everyone has one. Plus, I don't really care for GM products. The family's suburban has been in the shop countless times for little bullcrap sensors that cost $500 to replace. That being said, I don't particularly care for fords either, and I drive one!!! I hate my truck really, low power, just not big enough to pull the Jeep and trailer. SO, I am looking for a Dodge, but only because it has a true medium duty engine in it, the 5.9 cummins, and NV or Dana drivetrain products. The only thing dodge about it is the frame and body.

And as far as GM being cheaper, I have less than $1000 in my rebuild/hop up and it will outrun a buddy's TBI 305 in another CJ7 with the same drivetrain as mine. I'm only running a carter AFB carb, and I have just as good off-road performance as he does, then I spank him on the street.

That being said, a 401 is in the future for me. I will build it right too, so I can stomp on it rolling at 35 and go sideways on dry pavement :7: :brows:

[Slapperbar]

Iffn its blowed up I'm stuffin' the biggest hoss i can betwixt the frame rails. :leaving:

[Jeepkreep]

A frikkin thread started in 2002!!!! :shocked:

Jeezess H Christmas trees!!!!!!! could we dig up an older one? :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

[Slapperbar]

I can dig one up if ya' want. :cucumber:

[scrambler013]

IMHO, keep it AMC or Mopar. That is the natural lineage of the Jeep, I realize that they put engines from the General in em, but last I knew Jeep NEVER came with a GM 350 MPI from the factory. Keep it Jeep, and if you can't do that at least Keep it MOPAR.


my question to scrambler though is, would it be a sin to put a 401 in a classic scrambler?

[Mud_slinga]

I have written a long and mad letter to a Jeep magazine that will remain nameless. I don't want to sway anyones opinion of it. BUT the one thing that has pi$$ed me off about it is the fact that they condone the installation of GM engines in classic and rare Jeeps. I am a bit of an extremist and I think that they should remain Jeep. Now I know that some of the AMC Jeeps had GM engines from the factory and even some other GM parts, they even had Ford parts on them. AMC = All Motors Corperation, HAHAHAHA :D . But what I cannot accept is the installation of GM 305's, 350's, and 4.3's. I don't recall the Scramblers ever having MPFI engines, correct me if I am wrong PLEASE. I think that it is a sin to do that to an classic or rare Jeep. Would anyone take a Hurst Jeepster and tear it to shreds just to add a couple of more horses? I think not, so why do it to a rare '86 Scrambler. Post opinions, please, I want to know if I am the only one that feels this way.

since this was brought back to life.... :umn: lol
Says the man with a 4 popper, you just can't handle the H.P. my friend :chair: But it is sad when people will swap in a 350 and leave the rear axle when all of the jeep engines are proven to be decent powerplants. Just imagine the carnage with one of those suckers in with a locker and 33's :hakinghe:

[Ray Van Buren]

My .02 I don't believe in cross-breeding. However, since Chrysler bought Jeep back in the late '80s, then I believe any Mopar motor is fair game(however, I draw the line at Mercedes Benz engines in a Jeep). Imagine, if you will, a CJ with a Hemi!

[mdwatkins]

my thoughts are this:


I don't give a crap what you do to your jeep. It's yours, make it as pretty as you want, as original as you want, or as F'd Up as you want. Just don't ask me to pay for it and I won't care what you do to it.

one thing i've found is that if you off road it, especially where the motor will get abused a lot, there are a lot more places that carry chevy parts close to home than AMC parts and the parts are cheaper.

my question to scrambler though is, would it be a sin to put a 401 in a classic scrambler?

I can't believe I'm going to say this....but I actually agree with Fubar on this one :pigfly:

I'm all for keeping things stock...but when stock in my opinion isn't better or more reliable than I've got to go with what is...and in my case it was the 327. I built and swapped the 327 for half the cost of what it would have been to drop the original 304 back in...and that is even if I could find a 304 locally worth rebuilding. I do have an out since the PO did the actual GM conversion for me, but I would have eventually ran that way anyhow.

It's your Jeep make it yours...If yours means that it's bone stock with all OEM pieces and parts great...but don't rag on someone else for building something for them.

I'm just like everyone else when I see a classic that has been torn apart and defiled, but swapping in this or that make of a part is not a huge deal. Take a look at our long lost moderator GPW...was it a sin for him to drop in that sweet 5.0 into that 44? hell no...that thing was SWEEEET...and why did he do it? because it was what he had on hand and he built it for him at the time.

I say if you want to do it...do it (as long as it is safe and reliable)...screw what anyone else thinks.

[Ratman]

Its very simple

Its a Jeep thing get it?

it's your Jeep you gotta be seen in it not me.
:beer:

[RRAUTO]

I agree that it all comes down to how you drive and what you do with it. I had a factory 78 golden eagle, now it has a 4 in lift, and will probably get an injection upgrade soon. Carbs. don't work well in the mountain trails near me. So it just comes down to what you need. I try to keep any upgrades bolt on, and keep all my old parts just in case I want to go back to stock. But I would put a 401 amc in any day over a chevy 350. Big block is the way to go!

[adventure bob]

Once againt he idea of "my opinion should be everyones" raises it's ugly head. first of all Jeeps are only rare becuase there are people willing to make them so. Just like beanie babies are only expensive if your a collector. Folks not involved in that click, group or faction don't care. You can't make us care. Your rant only proves you don't get the whole jeep thing. You do your thing and I'll do mine and neither of us are wrong. Oh and heres the big part you don't run around like zealot preaching the gospel according to you.

Think of it like sex, you do what feels good to you and I'll do what feels good to me. Thats the point of the whole thing.

[jeeperkt]

Why not a 318 or 360. you dont need GM. Just keep tha Jeep!

Viva Jeep! :icon312: